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Subject: {ASSM} {REVIEW} Interviewing Oosh on "Pavlova" - 1/4
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:10:58 -0400
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(Copyright 2002 pleasecain@aol.com; excerpts from "Pavlova's Bitches" 
Copyright 2001 Oosh.)




"It Appears Girls Don't Like Cigar Shapes as Much as Boys Do": An Interview 
With Oosh on "Pavlova's Bitches"
by pleasecain@aol.com


It is all a matter of suspense and timing: she gives Shipman a few moments to 
recover, then-- 

"Whee!" she cries, drawing the feather up from Shipman's ankle to that deadly 
sensitive spot behind the knee; and Shipman screams. This is wonderful, 
simply wonderful. She has to do it again, and she does. Shipman screams 
again. Carter is helpless with laughter for a moment, and this allows Shipman 
time to recover her wits.

"Just a moment, Carter," she says breathlessly, as she feels Carter grasping 
her leg in preparation for another attack. "I screamed."

"Oh."

"You remember the rules, don't you?"

"Yes."

"Right. Well you've got to kiss me just where the feather was when I 
screamed."

"Yes, you're right. That would have been about here, wouldn't it?" Carter 
pokes the back of Shipman's knee with the tip of the feather, causing Shipman 
to buck.

"So now you must kiss me there."

"Hmmm . . ." Carter turns her head this way and that, wondering how to 
approach the task. Finally, she puts down the feather and grasps Shipman's 
thigh with both hands, then cocks her head to one side and moves in with her 
lips. Shipman's skin is beautiful: lustrous in the dim winter afternoon light 
that strains in through the little cottage window, its smooth vulnerability 
is heightened by the discreet tracery of blue veins. And as she nears her 
target, Carter feels the warmth, smells the delicate scent of clean, fresh 
maidenhood.

Shipman has been moaning in delight for some moments, for, quite without 
thinking, Carter's hands have been doing what hands naturally will when 
presented with a young woman's thigh; and, weakened already, Shipman suddenly 
becomes aware that her nipples are bursting, her crotch on fire, and the 
delicate, inquisitive creeping of Carter's fingers--unspeakably 
delightful--is propelling her toward climax. And then she feels the brush of 
Carter's hair, and then the kiss--warm, passionate--why, Carter is actually 
licking her, tasting her! In an agony of pleasure, Shipman rocks her hips, 
trying to agitate her pubis on the back of the armchair. It is just--only 
just--enough, and suddenly Shipman is groaning, groaning in a mixture of 
surprised pleasure and anticipated release from the torment of desire.

Carter is amazed, for all of a sudden Shipman's satin thigh has erupted into 
a rash of prickles. She draws back, amazed: this is more than goose-flesh. 
Wonderingly, she runs the palm of her hand lightly over Shipman's rump as 
Shipman frantically rocks her hips in an attempt to wring out the last drops 
of sensation--with only partial success.

"Are you all right, Shipman?" asks Carter, unnerved by this evidently violent 
seizure.

But Shipman can only moan, "My God . . . My God . . ." over and over again, 
twitching and shuddering.

And then Carter looks up, and sees, and is further amazed. For what had been 
a neatly-cloven peach has swollen, ripened and burst magnificently open. "Oh 
. . . perhaps it is like the illustration after all. Wait a minute." She goes 
to the table and opens the heavy book at the bookmark. Yes: there it is. She 
inverts the page, kneels behind Shipman again and looks from one to the 
other, comparing. "Oh my . . . why, yours is almost like a flower," she 
murmurs.

"Carter, what are you doing?" asks Shipman, annoyed.

"Just having a look. Comparing with the book."

"O please, Carter, can we not get this done?"




I was going to write a clever opening, but here it is instead: Oosh writes 
wonderful, intelligent fiction. Anyone who has read it agrees. I am a 
newcomer, and after only a couple stories, her convert. That about says it.

On alt.sex.stories.d, I eavesdropped on a conversation about the lessons she 
learned writing her first novel, 2001's "Pavlova's Bitches." Her remarks 
prompted me to locate the work on the Internet and plow right through.

It is the story of the young women of fictional Hepplewhite Academy in 1860s 
England, who organize a forward-looking science club, led by their idealistic 
instructor, Georgina Paulson. The sheltered women learn more of the forbidden 
than merely science. Oosh draws the tale with her trademark droll humor, 
while scoring a number of significant points--and other not unpleasant 
effects.

The award-winning novel left me feeling exhilarated and intrigued, and 
inspired me to interview the author directly, to satisfy my curiosities and 
explore the work in depth. Over June-July 2002, she answered scores of 
questions with thoughtfulness, candor and grace.

My hope is that we writers and readers might learn from her generosity, and 
have fun besides. If you have not read "Pavlova's Bitches," I urge you to do 
so: it is available for free at http://www.asstr-mirror.org/files/Authors/oosh/www/pavlova.html, and 
will be worth your while. It is a delightful and provocative novel, 
representing the best spirit of free Internet fiction.

Thanks, Oosh. Never put down your pen.

--Cain, 8/20/02




QUESTIONER: How was the novel conceptualized, what was its genesis? You 
mention another writer, Hecate, in your Acknowledgments--what was her role?

OOSH: Yes, it was in correspondence with Hecate that the idea for "Pavlova" 
was born. She mentioned Pavlov's dogs, and I hit upon the idea of a Madame 
Pavlova and her young women's academy, in which she might scientifically 
investigate the cause of certain other reflex secretions. That immediately 
suggested the title "Pavlova's Bitches." I began to think about what I knew 
of Pavlov's experiments--the ringing of the bell, that suggested using a bell 
first of all to gauge nervous excitement, and only secondarily to excite it 
sympathetically. Hecate helped me with that thought, and also with the idea 
that electricity could be used to provide controlled stimulation. The very 
idea of a pioneering schoolmistress experimenting on her pupils somehow 
conjured up the idea of Van der Graaf generators and the whole romance of 
electricity. That prompted me to recall Rachel Maines' fascinating researches 
into the early (19th century) development of vibrators, and also the use of 
electric shock machines to perform all kinds of miracle cures. It seemed 
natural to put the period at around 1860, when these fantastic machines were 
just beginning to appear and be touted by unscrupulous cure-mongers.

At the same time, I was well aware of the powerlessness of women in the 19th 
century. In those days, any result Mme. Pavlova might have obtained would 
almost certainly have been subsumed into someone else's work. (Things aren't 
very different today. I have heard it said that Dr. Alexander Fleming's 
discovery of penicillin relied to some extent on a female assistant whose 
name nobody can remember. And I have a good friend, a researcher, whose every 
discovery is trumpeted by her organization's world-famous boss.) So I 
conceived the idea that Mme. Pavlova's work would be taken over, desexualized 
and made more rigorously dull by a male successor--Pavlov. And that, of 
course, would require that Mme. Pavlova's ideas would have to go to Russia. 
That's how the story began to spin itself in my mind.

 From that starting-point, Hecate and I began researching and imagining. She 
came up with Carry, the beautiful and aristocratic Head Girl with a violent 
crush on Mme. Pavlova. She enriched the vision of Mme. Pavlova by reference 
to the notable recent biography of Georgina, Duchess of Devonshire. She also 
thought that the name "Pavlova" might have the wrong associations--both 
balletic and culinary. So I englished her into Miss Paulson. Together we 
prepared a story outline that involved the discovery of the conditioned 
reflex and also the invention of the vibrator--an idea that would instantly 
be appropriated and exploited.

Unfortunately, at that point Hecate became quite ill, and so it fell to me to 
do the actual writing.



Q: You also cite Harriet Taylor. Who was she, and what is her significance? 
And that of the Mill family?

O: Harriet Taylor was John Stuart Mill's long-time mistress and (two years 
after her first husband had popped his clogs) wife. She was a highly 
intelligent woman who more or less gave birth to feminist theory 
single-handed. Although nearly all of her writing was reworked by her 
husband, it is certain that between the two they established feminism as a 
dynamic and polemical force for social change.
 
J.S. Mill was the moral philosopher of the Steam Age. Just as Brunel wanted 
to transform England with his bridges and railways, so Mill was not content 
to theorize, but sought to be an architect of social reform. Mill was a doer. 
Full of political zeal, he interested himself in social questions of all 
kinds. As a penal reformer, he designed prisons that are still in use today. 
When Harriet died, he collaborated with their daughter in producing a 
magisterial tome which might be considered one of the first feminist bills of 
rights. He claimed that Harriet Taylor was the inspiration and mainspring of 
his thought.

It seemed only natural for these pioneers of feminism to loom large in the 
culture of a progressive academy such as Hepplewhite. And of course I had a 
certain amount of fun with the Benthamite hedonism that Mill worked up into a 
surprisingly respectable ethical theory.



Q: I think your book illustrates how the mind and potential of the mid-19th 
century woman were as tightly corseted as her figure, and yet the work is not 
overbearing or preachy, owing to your wry humor. Were you striving for an 
accurate representation of the women and their era, or for something more 
stylized? In other words, is this book truly dealing with that particular 
era, or written in response to something of the present day?

O: I was certainly trying to give an accurate representation of the status 
(one might say "the plight") of women in the 19th century. And I wanted to 
raise awareness of the very remarkable courage that was demanded from the 
pioneers of sexual equality, and from those women who sought to lead 
independent lives. When people think of feminists, they usually think of 
universal suffrage or the liberation movements of the 1960s and 1970s. But 
none of those would have been even thinkable without the struggle--often an 
ideological struggle--of such earlier pioneers as the members of the 
Kensington Society. One of the most significant advances for women in 
England, for example, was the Married Women's Property Acts of 1882-3: before 
that time, a woman lost all her property rights upon marriage. Such advances 
would have been impossible without the campaigning of people like Mill and 
Taylor.



Q: What about those other rather paternalistic obfuscations perpetrated on 
the young women, did you intend those as accurate? For instance, do anecdotal 
parallels exist for the unlabeled "Number 18" in the women's anatomy texts, 
where the author keeps readers in the dark about their own clitorides (ed., I 
finally used that word in a sentence)? Or Carter bridling against his 
daughter's need for eyeglasses?

O: I was thinking very symbolically. Nevertheless, close parallels certainly 
exist. Only today, while researching something for a story I'm currently 
working on, I stumbled across a sex information website for teenagers. It 
purported to tell girls (and boys) everything they needed to know about their 
bodies as they went through puberty. It dealt with a number of issues 
connected with pain and inconvenience and possible signs of illness and 
groundless fears. But it never once mentioned the word "clitoris." It never 
even remotely alluded to the possibility that some sexual activities might be 
enormously pleasurable, nor that these might lead to the formation of strong 
emotional attachments and fixed ideas. There was not a word anywhere to 
suggest, to the visitor from Mars, why anyone in their right mind would dream 
of doing something so weird and disgusting as having sex. There was not a 
word of guidance about emotional fascinations, or how to deal with intense 
feelings for others. There was plenty about the plumbing and the mechanics, 
but not a thing about physical attraction, desire or sexual love. One hundred 
fifty years later, there is a "responsible" website out there that is telling 
young people that "everything they need to know" does not include the answer 
to these, the most important questions. For me, this is "Number 18" all over 
again.

But yes, if you ever find an old anatomical textbook, have a look, and see if 
you can find any reference to the clitoris. There was a conspiracy of silence 
that lasted well into the 20th century.

As for Henry Carter protesting against his daughter needing glasses: I'm glad 
you seized on this, because it is a symbolic point of great importance. I am 
very conscious of the distinctions people make between "needs" and "wants." 
Do people need sex, or merely want it? Do children need affection, or merely 
crave it? When does a want become a need? Is age relevant? These are 
questions to which I was certainly not attempting a systematic answer, but I 
did want to raise them. 

Nevertheless, I do find one thing to add to this--after all, Matson's "need" 
of a bride is tacitly acknowledged in the story. What, in practice, turns 
wanting into needing, for most people? I think the answer lies in what is 
expected of people. If your wants must be satisfied in order for you to 
perform as expected, then those wants are promoted into needs. In the 19th 
century, women's needs were ignored precisely because almost nothing was 
expected of them. They were perceived as companions and breeding machines. 
They were not expected to have hopes or aspirations, or anything momentous to 
contribute to society. In the story, Lucy Carter has gifts that nobody could 
have expected or thought to call forth; she has strengths that almost nobody 
wants; and she has needs that almost nobody recognizes.



Q: Even the female characters fall prey to these attitudes and perpetrate 
them on each other, as in those poignant scenes when Joanna Carter realizes 
she has alienated and harmed her daughters, or when even your heroine Paulson 
at first judges Lucy Carter a dullard because of her unconventional looks.

O: I know. Even in the first scene, I mention one of Lucy Carter's nannies 
strictly admonishing Lucy never to cross her legs. In shining a historical 
light on this repression, I fear that I have shone little upon the extent to 
which we may have contributed to our own downfall. It is quite possible that 
my own particular orientation and life-experience make it difficult for me to 
internalize and understand the reasons for this, and I'm sure that others 
have taken, and will take, these ideas further. Although I admit that I have 
somewhat demonized some (if not most) men in PB, I have discreetly praised 
others--such as J.S. Mill, and Georgina Paulson's father. If I have seemed to 
paint men black, I don't mean to exculpate those women who should have, but 
did not, resist. I seek, rather, to commemorate those brave souls (men no 
less than women) who saw the truth that the sexes are "equal in the sight of 
God." It required singular courage to oppose what was then an almost 
universal conviction.



Q: You commented earlier that not only are the women's aspirations 
discouraged by the men in your book, but even their ideas are co-opted. How 
relevant do you judge this message to the present? It's significant that even 
today, women are dissuaded from science and mathematics, as well as 
sexuality--PB is sharp in drawing the parallel that science, mathematics and 
sexuality are considered largely masculine arts (girls, for example, aren't 
expected to do well in mathematics, aren't encouraged toward science, and are 
admonished from sexuality)--and the women in your story are forced to run 
away from society to embrace these very things.

O: I tended to run mathematics, science and sexuality together, because 
together they represent the idea of control and understanding--both of the 
self and of the environment. Of course, this principle was utterly opposed to 
the prevailing view that women should be wholly dependent upon men.

This is relevant to the present day, but I wouldn't want to suggest that 
things haven't changed or improved. I simply thought that it would be helpful 
to put present issues in perspective by seeing them in the context of the 
past. Back in the mid-19th century, many people (most women included) thought 
it perfectly extraordinary that a few bizarre denatured women should strive 
against Nature and want education and jobs like men. Protesters against the 
status quo often seem like deranged malcontents to the secure majority. It is 
only with hindsight that we can recognize how reasonable their complaints 
were, and how blind and intolerant was the majority. I think that the 
perspective of history should teach an attitude of humility and 
open-mindedness which humanity has yet to learn.



Q: We hear about female genital mutilation practiced in certain regions of 
the world today. Was it practiced in 19th-century England, as depicted in 
your novel?

O: It most certainly was, though not widely, I'm glad to say. Anti-female 
hysteria (ironic that I should use that word) did not enjoy a universal 
reign, and although some of the stuffier members of the establishment may 
have regarded masturbation as a grievous crime, and female sexuality as 
shameful, few were prepared to interfere to the extent of inflicting surgery 
upon an unwilling victim.

Isaac Baker-Brown, whom I mention in "Pavlova," was a historical person. (In 
the HTML rendition, the first time I mention him I give a hyperlink to one of 
several online references that I found.) He was an eminent London surgeon who 
took it upon himself to treat disturbed or recalcitrant girls and young 
women. He believed (or claimed to believe) that masturbation was the cause of 
all sorts of physical and mental aberrations. His "cure" was clitoridectomy. 
As I recall, he operated on many hundreds of women and girls during his 
infamous career. In the end, though, his fanaticism and his unethical conduct 
left him isolated: he was denounced by his colleagues and became an outcast 
from the profession.



Q: What comprised "women's education" back then? Might a so-called science 
club for electrical studies really have existed at a women's school of the 
time? Would it be the only avenue in which a woman might encounter science or 
scientific education? Or am I being too literal here?

O: From about 1830 in England, elementary education was gradually being made 
available to children of both sexes. Secondary education was largely the 
preserve of the rich, or those lucky enough to fall under the ambit of a 
local charity. It was very scarce: Cheltenham Ladies' College had been 
founded in 1841 (amid protestations that women's education would serve men's 
needs) but it was not until the 1880s that people began to respond to the 
idea that girls were entitled to secondary education. But even earlier, the 
first attempts were being made to open university education to women 
(although they would not be allowed to receive degrees for many years yet). 
Newnham College, Cambridge, was opened in 1871 and Girton two years later. 
The first degrees were conferred on women in the 1940s!



Q: It's amazing that women weren't conferred degrees until the Second World 
War, a full century after the establishment of the first women's colleges. 
When did women first appear in the post-secondary administration and faculty? 
When did they begin to influence or determine the curriculum?

O: Without going into too much detail, women only started to make inroads 
into the academic hierarchy after the First World War--doubtless because of 
the dearth of young men. It is noteworthy how many of these pioneering women 
were described as "single." Professorships only came to women in significant 
numbers after the Second World War. Mothers of large families, such as the 
distinguished philosopher Elizabeth Anscombe, were not in the majority.

While I think that a female perspective might do something to alter the 
balance between the disciplines, I do not think that sexual orientation or 
sex should determine what is on the curriculum. What is important, and worth 
learning, is important and worth learning whatever one's sex. My outlook has 
always been that women are, and should be allowed to be, as able to learn and 
contribute as men are. Tearing down established structures and imposing 
radically new ones I have always seen as a particularly masculine 
strength--if it is a strength. I tend to think of men as revolutionaries and 
women as evolutionaries--but then, I don't like sexual stereotypes either.



Q: Was the exploration and fleshing of your ideas a satisfactory experience 
for you?

O: It was sometimes satisfactory. Some things seemed to work very well. But 
there were a number of wrong turnings and intractable problems. I remember 
that the episode with the duchess and the head mistress near the start of 
Part V held me up for over a month. Sometimes I laughed like a drain while I 
was planning and writing it; at others, I was tearing my hair out.



Continued in Part 2 --

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